Curse

Missing HB · Nov 22, 2010, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

counter ganking doesnt always work because you dont know how the other team is going to react. For example
1 you are blue, yellow runs to ur base and you decide to run to red. Red can decide to run back to their base to defend. In this situation Yellow wins.
2 you are blue, yellow runs to ur base and you decide to run to yellow. Red then caps middle. Red wins.
3 you are blue, yellow runs to ur base, and you decide to to send enough ppl back to your base to defend. You lose middle, red has the most people there so red wins.

And you need consider this only applies for capture points.... Borat already argued about 2 other maps : KoTH 1 team gets " ganked " whatever , and relic is either direct gank either pure luck on last secs....
However , kill count could be nice in fact to counter ganking .

axe · Nov 22, 2010, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

While I agree with you on the fact that nowadays people don't give a shit about HA, but rather about their rank, you give a really bad example.

When you stick to one gimmick for all your fame, you don't learn how to play HA. You don't learn how to play PvP and most importantly you don't learn how to enjoy PvP. Instead, you learn how to play a lame gimmick, and you enjoy it as long as it lasts. Then you leave HA under the illusion you know it like the back of your hand, and that you really are a good player.

Looks like the people that do care about HA are all posting in this thread, all 5 of them, and it also is nice seeing how most are looking at this from a different perspective IE: How/Why we started playing and what we enjoyed about the format.

Basically everyone that gives a shit, played HA when it was Altar Cap and were hooked ever since.

The people that didnt get the chance to play HA back then, come in, maybe get bambi and leave, everyone that is "old school" is hanging on to the format maybe with false hopes that it can be like it was.

But the truth is, there is still fun to be had even today, for me the fun is only from playing IWAY, I dont really care how it makes me look as a player, or that I dont learn the format, I just like to pit the build against other builds and learn how to play vs the other meta builds, for me that is fun and enjoyable.

I have personally also made many Bambi's, and wolves by taking other players in my teams, not really caring about fame until I got R8 and had a decent Flist already, at that point I really just stuck to Flist so I could get the Tiger emote. But I pugged low ranks almost my entire HA existence, only made possible by easy lame gimmicks, how else is a r0-r3 player supposed to butt heads with exp. r12's that play every build.

I can remember HATING 6v6 because it was so much fun prior to be able to pug up an IWAY team in 10 seconds, go in for 3 consecutives and think you were amazing. When it switched to 6v6 it was still a decent format and I converted a PvE guild into an HA guild in a matter of 3 days running a 6v6 version of IWAY, the guild got r3 so easily and first halls wins before these players even had an emote.

Kill Count basically IMO was the deciding factor that dumped all the players out of the game never to return.

Im not bragging, I dont take myself seriously, I play on dial up and I really have no experience outside of IWAY to talk about in depth reasons why HA is flawed or offer "competitve" suggestions to make the format more amazingfrom a PvP perspective.

I am trying to focus solely on the fun factor for CASUAL PLAYERS and those players are what is lacking from HA, not fame farmers. And IMO and from my own experiences pugging, the game was fun and lively when Pugging WAS a good option.

So think about what everyone is saying and learn from it, the vocal Minority that wants to see this as a competition, has it wrong, it should be challenging otherwise winning wouldnt bring much satisfaction, but the main barrier to entry "PUG" needs to be broken down. This has absolutely ZERO to do with rank discrimination, in fact quite the opposite, all the R0-R3 teams grind and play actively so they can get into the "good" r6-9 teams when they get there they continue to want to get to the r12+ teams so they can farm better, point is, if people could just get ON A TEAM and play the format would benefit.

As far as Fierce saying that awarding fame per map would destroy HA, that suggestion applies more to dead American times than Euro times, and you dont get 24 fame from going to HOH, you still have to win, so yes I think you should get the reward even if you skip from UW (if you win HoH) it would be almost no different than the current system, it just removes consecutives and awards what you WOULD have made had you not skipped maps, simple, and you still have to win.

Killed u man · Nov 22, 2010, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

1. non fun builds because of constant nerfs, as much i hate vsing bbways its a good challenge. rspike and bspike was free fame for any decent balanced team also nerfed, wasnt a problem at all they get blitzed on cap points all the time.

2. several bad maps like fetid, its so goddam dark, 3way in general esp at halls is quite flawed, but good teams can counter ganks

If you can counter the gank, it's not a gank.

If you have team against you that truly wants to see your blood, you won't win no matter what you do.

Unless, ofcourse, the third team is an unranked randomway or something, and even then.

superraptors · Nov 22, 2010, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

If you can counter the gank, it's not a gank.

If you have team against you that truly wants to see your blood, you won't win no matter what you do.

Unless, ofcourse, the third team is an unranked randomway or something, and even then.

yes if u can counter a gank its still a gank, u obviously you dont win much cap points unless a bad team like dong ganks for you, when gankers full team your base its a gank, most bad teams ie. you, would probably try to hold there own or resign

like the other day i was playing dong full teamed our base, yellow not being dumb that dong would have 2 bases, splitted to their base, we took yellows base, then it was everyone fighting for altar, ultimately we recapped our own bases, we won by a 4 point margin and was quite an even match. turning a gank into a match where every fights against each other. dong will full team ur base, and they will stay there till they wipe if you try hold it against them, if u start splitting early, dong will
attempt to play to win, and thats how you beat this bunch of bads.

and like fierce said it doesnt always work if the other team doesnt react the right way, same concept just different colors, other team must split to dongs base.....

king of the hill is the easiest map, timed deaths on your infuser 5-8 seconds before respawn on altar is what wins matches, if your getting ganked and wiped after timer then your obviously bad

only situation where you cant counter a gank is relic

Maria The Princess · Nov 23, 2010, 08:11 AM // 08:11

The last time i did HA was with a an old guild, that was more of a GVG guild, and HA was more of a kill time practice. That was 2 years ago.

When i would try to pug it, nobody even wanted to hear anything from me because i was not rank 7+, that limited my HA to guild only, and as i said they did not do allot of HA at all.

Before i joined that guild, i was always in PVE guild, that would occasionally pvp. When those guilds would attempt to make an HA party, we would take in anyone that wanted to join if we had a spot to fill, but.... the low ranked "lfg" people were extremely rare at that point already, and, those who were "lfg" were usually rank 7+ who did not want to know anything about our parties, even if we would be rolling the exact build that would be popular at the time.

really, the problem is the rank discrimination.

most of the old school HA PvPers have moved on to other stuff, the game is 6 years old (?) at this point. The Pve people were scared off by rank elitism, and the HAers who stayed continue that tradition not "allowing" newer players (or people newly interested in pvp) to join and get that high rank. They simply dont want to spam for 2-3 hours to get a pitty party taht will most likely quit after 1-2 rounds

Either add Hero points to more then just HA, or remove that rank all together, maybe then people will take a shot at it again.

but that will never happen because many people worked hard and allot of those ranks.

Lord Mip · Nov 23, 2010, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Maybe drop or at least lower the rank requirement to fill your parties? I understand why people are asking for ranks, but playing with 'lesser' players (which I don't really agree on because rank isnt skill) is better than not playing at all right?

Missing HB · Nov 23, 2010, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

Kill Count basically IMO was the deciding factor that dumped all the players out of the game never to return.

Point is that they did Heroes Ascent really poorly. It would have been more logical if HA was 8v8 , with those map objectives , with no heroes , and now actual HA 6v6 , heroes allowed or not , and holding ( or killcount ) .
If we just think , kill count is really more fair than crap objectives.
Who does actually get fun by running relic 7mn then just crossing fingers last sec ??Who does get fun by wasting time in 1v1 koth whereas infuser keep suiciding at .03??

Every format and every mode is clearly unfair , and kill count now would prevent gankings + make more tactical things which wouldn't work in other formats ...That's not the same at all , but when i saw last time in GvG r40 full human guild beating Pvers ( with 4 heroes )only thanks to flag and r/mo + war in their base ( they killed lord like 5 sec faster ) , i clearly realized that there was a problem....

diabiosx · Nov 24, 2010, 03:47 AM // 03:47

if you reintroduce kill count people will just run EoE. 1 skill kills the entire system. Kill count will not prevent ganking because there will still be teams just trying to wipe the team they dont want tow in. If you are dead, u cant score kills.
Back when killcount was introduced in the 6v6 days. SWAY with 2RaO 1trapper 1splinter rit, 2n/rt was the most popular build. Usually 1 team would be leading 10points, EoE explodes and Sway gains like 20points(exageration but thats what basically went down.) and wins.

Killed u man · Nov 24, 2010, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

yes if u can counter a gank its still a gank, u obviously you dont win much cap points unless a bad team like dong ganks for you, when gankers full team your base its a gank, most bad teams ie. you, would probably try to hold there own or resign

like the other day i was playing dong full teamed our base, yellow not being dumb that dong would have 2 bases, splitted to their base, we took yellows base, then it was everyone fighting for altar, ultimately we recapped our own bases, we won by a 4 point margin and was quite an even match. turning a gank into a match where every fights against each other. dong will full team ur base, and they will stay there till they wipe if you try hold it against them, if u start splitting early, dong will
attempt to play to win, and thats how you beat this bunch of bads.

and like fierce said it doesnt always work if the other team doesnt react the right way, same concept just different colors, other team must split to dongs base.....

king of the hill is the easiest map, timed deaths on your infuser 5-8 seconds before respawn on altar is what wins matches, if your getting ganked and wiped after timer then your obviously bad

only situation where you cant counter a gank is relic

The cluelessness in your post gives me a faint taste of euro in my mooth...

Do you really think I haven't thought of the famous Chamalee: "Go for the third team's base" tactic when faced with a gank?

That whole tactics is based off the fact that:

A) The third team is retarded and just lets you cap their base.

B) The team wanting to gank you will just do RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO all after they cap your base, and thus not really ganking you, but just going for your base.

C) The ganking team being retarded.

You're assuming 3 things which were assumed untrue for this discussion to even begin. Clearly you should rethink the steps you took to understand the mistakes you made in your reasoning.

If a team wants to gank you, no matter what map, no matter how good you play, you can not stop them.

For example, another one of your flawed example:

If a team ganks you on KoTH, you can counter the gank by letting your Monks die before timer, so you can hold for 8 points straight.

I mean, really? No shit sherlock, that's pretty much how you're supposed to play, and hasn't got anything to do with ganking.

If you can hold for 8 points straight when not getting ganked, you can hold for 8 points straight when getting ganked, because a team ganking you doesn't suddenly gain a damage boost or anything. Vice versa: If you can't hold 8 points straight when they're not ganking you, you won't hold 8 points straight when they are ganking you.

Point being: No matter what map you're on, a gank is always disbeneficial to your team, and almost always results in a loss for your team.

The one exception here is, as mentioned before, holding for 8 points straight on KoTH, which irony much, is the closest one to old-school holding, but holding for 8 points straight isn't related to ganking, and a different matter alltogether.

@ Fierce:

I don't know if you played during 6v6 days (I think you started later), but people sure as hell didn't run EoE back then.

Spikes, or big aoe damage were the way to go then, with nearly no hex metas or any sort of "pressure" build around. People just ran in, spiked something, and ran back out.

Thinking back of it, those were lame days, but not nearly as lame as loosing Cap Points due to a gank, or simply because you don't have enough nuking power to throw off a holding team. As a matter of fact, if you add up all the shitscenarios that occur every day with the current shitconditions (last millisecond relic cap, etc), any smart person would take kill counter over this shit any day.

Atleast with kill count, YOU controlled YOUR victory. Even if this meant running a spike build, atleast YOU had the control, not the other team, or luck.

Kill count was flawed in it's own way, but hell: it is BY FAR a better format than relic run or cap points.

diabiosx · Nov 24, 2010, 05:24 AM // 05:24

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/t...9.html?t=79839

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...es%27+Asce nt

to enlighten you guys that this thing that most of you guys are talking about has been around for 5-6years.

highlights of the past.
" back then there were no titles so you were either 3 or nothing, there were often simply not enough people in the district to make a 8 man team. "-GW 2006

so if you eliminate rank, there will be NO ONE to play HA.

superraptors · Nov 24, 2010, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

wall of text

i think you need to relax, just because you dont win when your getting ganked it doesnt mean its always a definite loss. just because you havent improved after 5 years+

Kill count really??? so bad teams like you can run some gimmicky spikes...

why did u even mention chamalee what has he got anything to do anything.

cap points, why would the ganking team stay in your base and do f all when your not even there, and already at the third teams base, your logic is idiotic, the third team obviously would want to win, if there smart they will go to the ganking teams base, otherwise the ganking team will be in the lead, if there in the lead why wouldnt they play to win?

your post if full of anger(maybe because i called you bad

)
maybe your taking my comments too serious

i can set you up some counselling from my good friend purge, you guys will get along just fine.

diabiosx · Nov 24, 2010, 06:04 AM // 06:04

I think a quick fix to increase more players is to change golden gates to map 4. The reason for this is because that way beginners can just learn the basic idea of 8v8 PVP, which is killing. There they can learn positioning, skill usage, viable skill bars, importance of morale boost, coordination with their teammates. It will also give them an incentive to play since in the 4maps, they can farm 10fame, which isnt alot but will be worth their time(10fame>6fame) I belive this will make farming rank3 easier and It wouldnt change much of the value of fame since any1 wanting to get r6 or more has to do better than 4consec wins. Of course a con to this will be more gimmick builds to farm these first 4maps. But imo it will be balanced on skill level. I believe that only beginners will run these gimmick builds just to farm 10fame to get rank3. Getting rank6 farming 10fame a run will take a long time, and getting rank9 with farming these first 4maps will take MONTHS. As in any1 serious in getting high consecs(getting higher rank) cant run these gimmick builds as past map4, they need to spec for relic runs, KOTH, splits. What this does is that it will balance beginners with lame gimmick builds with serious experienced teams that run holding builds(snares,song haste,rupts). In laymen's term, For the first 4maps balance is like this: noob playerskills, but better build VS experienced playerskills, but slightly worse build in comparison.
And not only that it is very simple to implement for Anet.

Reverend Dr · Nov 24, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Kill count is terrible.

If one team is clearly superior they win, no big surprise here.

If one team is clearly worse, then both the other teams farm just that one team.

If all three teams are roughly equal and competent (hardly happens if ever), then things can be interesting. I played a good bit back during 6v6 and I think this has happened once.

Of course there are problems with how kill count determined who got the point. It doesn't count life stealing and I don't believe it counts degen. It looks at which team did the most damage in the last few seconds before a target dies. It highly favors spike play over pressure play. I've seen too many cases where a team gets points that it did not deserve just because of those mechanics.

And if its 1v1 killcount, then it is really just deathmatch with a different name.

superraptors · Nov 24, 2010, 08:28 AM // 08:28

dp needs to be present in halls, this will make people play smarter, ofc holding team dp resets every new match to the morale they entered with

Missing HB · Nov 24, 2010, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Kill count is terrible.
If one team is clearly superior they win, no big surprise here.
If one team is clearly worse, then both the other teams farm just that one team.

Terrible argument. Nothing bad in fact than best team do win and worst do lose. The point is that the fight should be FAIR for the worse team at least ( an unranked team will have more chances to beat a r12 bala on killing than on koth or relic i guess....)

@ Fierce : If red team decides to gank blue team , then they will have more points and yellow team might decide to kill red with blue , etc... You can't blame red team then for ganking if they win ....

axe · Nov 24, 2010, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Terrible argument. Nothing bad in fact than best team do win and worst do lose. The point is that the fight should be FAIR for the worse team at least ( an unranked team will have more chances to beat a r12 bala on killing than on koth or relic i guess....)

@ Fierce : If red team decides to gank blue team , then they will have more points and yellow team might decide to kill red with blue , etc... You can't blame red team then for ganking if they win ....

I think people forgot how Killcount and 6v6 worked, but Killcount is Build wars. 6v6 is buildwars at its FINEST

That may be fine and good for people to go farming, but it killed the format because nobody wanted to play Rock Paper Scissors when you go in with scissors, win a couple and face rock and auto lose.

Its like you are always saying 1v1 vs the holding team = auto lose, this is 6v6, killcount.... not if you are the ones abusing the mechanic, then you auto win, but you lose more population that doesnt like to play that particular style of play, that is basically fame farming in its purest form where you dont even enjoy what you are doing, you simply want to win.

The only way to get people to play HA is to make it fun and accessable, the fun part is close to being there IMO, if you get to play every map, its fun, but the problem is Pugging, which is the way Casual players play the game, sucks the fun out of it because you are so unlikely to get a match let alone win one, due to lack of other pugs to face. If they can remedy this hangup, you will see people start to play again.

Killed u man · Nov 24, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Kill Count was HARDLY as worse as you guys make it out to be. It didn't have anything to do with RPS, but rather spike vs pressure. That being that pressure was completely useless and that spiking simply was the way to go.

When 2 teams engaged at eachother, a third team could just spike out both teams engaging at eachother.

This is flawed in every way possible, I'm not saying it isn't. However, compare this to Cap Points or worse even Relic Run. With Relic Run you litterealy have 5 people doing nothing for the intire match, and 3 people doing something in the last 2 minutes.

I mean, let it seep through. You're playing a game where the objective is to wait 5 minutes, only to engage in the last 2 minutes, all this on top of the fact there is a good chance it'll just come down to last millisecond cap, which hasn't got anything to do with build, skill or map, but rather the single factor called luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

i think you need to relax, just because you dont win when your getting ganked it doesnt mean its always a definite loss. just because you havent improved after 5 years+

Kill count really??? so bad teams like you can run some gimmicky spikes...

why did u even mention chamalee what has he got anything to do anything.

cap points, why would the ganking team stay in your base and do f all when your not even there, and already at the third teams base, your logic is idiotic, the third team obviously would want to win, if there smart they will go to the ganking teams base, otherwise the ganking team will be in the lead, if there in the lead why wouldnt they play to win?

You can keep calling me bad, we both know who swayed his rank.

Chamalee was the first one to employ the "Go for third team's base"-tactics. I don't expect you to know this, because I think you weren't even ranked during those days. In the early days of Cap Points, EVERY team just sat in their base when they got ganked deseperatly trying to fight of the ganking team for 8 minutes. This was mainly because even during these days, people were already shit, and had no clue how to play this game. Me and Chamalee were the only ones trying different tactics in order to wave off a gank. I gave up after a couple of tries because I realized the map design is just so bad, there is no way you can win when you've got a single team constantly screwing you over. Chamalee kept using these tactics untill every just copied him, and it became a general strategy.

However, in more recent days, now that Germans and Frenchies have taken over HA, and we all know how good their tactics are

, this "go for third team's base"-tactics is a lost art mainly because 90% of these bbsway teams are ventless.

I kinda feel like Dale from Pineapple Express trying to explain Saul the car radio died. (If you remember this scene) I simply can not make you see an obvious truth, and I have no more methods of attempting at doing so, so I'm just going to lay it out one last time:

If you're playing Cap Points, and you have a full team constantly snaring you, blocking you, killing you and decapping all bases you cap, the third team which has pretty much free bases to play with, on top of the fact they got no opposition whatsoever, will get the most points. If they don't, they're an unranked, or bbsway, team which have no clue how to play HoH and thus this intire discussion is pointless, because then we're arguing retarded people playing HoH.

@ DP in HoH, HoH used to have DP, and it was one of the best mechanics. Why they removed it, I'll never know (I do know, the balance team, Izzy, is retarded). The holding team got a moral boost every 2 minute mark.

Again on the Kill Count thing:

I'm not in favor of bringing KC back, however, the initial statement was that KC is a better (read: less worse) mechanic than Cap Points and Relic Run.

The latter 2 are completely uncompetitive. They turn GW into a game of psychology, where alliances, nationality and your friendlist become more important than player skill.

Atleast with Kill Count, lame as it is, YOU controlled the victory by picking a decent spike build. And heck, if I have to choose between running a build with spike potential in order to win, or have my win depend on my alliance, friendlist and nationality, I'dd still rather take the build wars.

Cap Points and Relic Run are complete shit. The bottom of the bottom. The little stream of liquid shit that drips out of a bag of shit in the bottom. Every other mechanic of format looks good compared to these 2, and they should've gotten removed after the first week they got implemented.

I actually recall Anet doing a poll here on guru wether or not the community liked these new maps, and there was a mass appeal to remove them, yet they still implemented them.

diabiosx · Nov 24, 2010, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Terrible argument. Nothing bad in fact than best team do win and worst do lose. The point is that the fight should be FAIR for the worse team at least ( an unranked team will have more chances to beat a r12 bala on killing than on koth or relic i guess....)

@ Fierce : If red team decides to gank blue team , then they will have more points and yellow team might decide to kill red with blue , etc... You can't blame red team then for ganking if they win ....

This is how kill count works with your example. If red team decides to gank blue team, then they will be trying to kill blue team. How can they just get points because they trying to "gank" blue team. You have to kill first and killing takes time. So what happens is that yellow team will wait til both teams are pressured and go in to steal kills. Because waiting will be soo beneficial, it will just be a waiting game. The first team to do something will just lose. This plus what Dr. Reverend said. There was a reason why kill count was removed, WOW seriously.
History repeats itself ok. Be nice if people can say what kind of HA experience they have for posting. Why? because most of these posts have soo many false statements in them.

PS not going to argue with my fanboy because there was a few threads elsewhere where his credibility was destroyed already. I can go here and do the same to the false statements hes putting in this posts but thats what trolls want

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...html?p=5219309
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/b...0445080p6.html

Missing HB · Nov 24, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Exactly. I'm not saying that Killcount must come back , but that having only kill count would make a much more FAIR(yes , i like this word

) hall map than it is right now . That's the same for Heroes in HA in fact. I know it was crap , but it's still better to play with/against heroes than just having to wait hours because noone to play or no opponent ....
It's just gonna be a waiting game but come on ... The only equal chances for blue and red to win in 1v1 are Capture points...And in 3ways ,such as KotH which is the worst , you most likely have to adapt a pro strategy to win( think if ghost dies at 6 pts , will 3rd team /resign? ; if we let ghost die at 4 pts , will we be able to kill holding team before 3rd one resigns , etc... and i'm not considering joke ghost cap times or cap not even on stairs...) or to just rely on pure luck ....

Reverend Dr · Nov 24, 2010, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

an unranked team will have more chances to beat a r12 bala on killing than on koth or relic i guess....

No.

That weakest team will be farmed. That weakest team will forever be getting 2v1'd. How do you come back from that? How do you get kills when you only have eight players for a few moments after a team rez (and don't kid yourself, the fight is going to take place on top of your rez shrine)?

People don't like getting 2v1'd. Kill count is a guaranteed way for this to always happen to the weakest team. What about this is a good idea?

Really relic is the easiest way for a weaker team to win a match in halls.